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David

Kill-On-Sight; Issue and Response

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Hello, Dead Matter community.

 

I can't help but take note that, at least on the forums, a vast majority of Dead Matter players don't like kill-on-sight and would rather have a PvE oriented, yet PvP capable, game form from Dead Matter. So far, it looks like that's the goal of Quantum Integrity, but in a day and age where for the last decade and longer, the gaming industry was dominated by PvP games and battle royale games (All of which are undoubtedly inspired by Minecraft Hunger Games), it is interesting and worth attention that there should even be the formation of a game like Dead Matter. Kill on Sight style free-for-alls are typically always what online games become, and this is especially true for survival games. Things like Fortnite and PUBG, the newest Call of Duties, and the latest Battlefields always seem to sell the best, yet Dead Matter and Fallout 76 are attracting an unusually small number of kill-on-sight players when compared to their larger, no-KOS audience.

 

In both Fallout 76 and Dead Matter, random deathmatches are being actively discouraged by the game itself and the community around it. People are asking the developers in Bethesda and QI how KOS will be mitigated. The advocates for killing on sight are fewer and farrer between than I, and likely many of you, have ever seen before for survival games. Is this possibly the start of the decline of RDM/KOS? If it is, how come PvP oriented games are still so popular?

 

Please reply below with opinions on why we're seeing such large non-RDM groups form around these two upcoming titles. Let us all know what you think about this drastic and polarizing contrast between what's popular right now and what's in development right now.

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Cause a fair amount of people are fed up of hopping on a game just to get KoS. Also it's caters to more casual players who don't have a lot of time to play non stop. IMO KoS is boring and ruins the game for everyone bar the KoSer's. In general Most of them are Toxic AF as well.  

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They did say they are making the game pve orientated so kos wont happen as often, plus if i remember correctly, melee weapons will dominate for the most part, they said guns and ammo wont be as abundant. so ppl wont always have the capabilities to kos all the time.  mixed with the a.i factions and reputation, if you go out and be a dick, you are going to be treated as such by players and the a.i. i believe kos wont be as much as an issue in alpha, but once early access on steam opens, things could change. remember ppl with also have servers designed for pve and some for pvp, and admins will ban ppl from servers if ppl act like dicks

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Maybe DM should incorporate a karma system where if a player wants to actively murder people for no reason (counted & warned automatically) throw them into a pool of players with that same playstyle so they can know how it feels or be more suited to said playstyle.

 

for example, player A kills player B, a chat message shows of the developers choosing (I made my own here for example's sake) "You've murdered a survivor, you monster" Something lighthearted at first, because it IS just a game. Through repetition the messages get worse and worse until eventually the player either gets reconnected to the said 'pool server' or they get connected to it upon restart of the game, this is where they can stay - with people of their same mindset, either for a set time or for life.

 

Maybe if you were thrown into this pool you could appeal it on the forums with a valid argument

 

This system would need a lot of parameters, for example 1. was the victim also an assailant (had the victim injured the attacker...)

2. did the victim have a weapon equipped at the time

3. did the victim see/detect their assailant 

etc etc.

 

Another suggestion is NPC settlement infamy, murdering someone close to a faction will cause your reputation to drop, and cause said npcs to become hostile to you if you continue to do so

 

Both examples can be summed up by image shown below (Yes, It's FO:NV)

Screenshot-1.png

 

Thanks for reading my reply!

Edited by DunDUNDAN
fixes

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4 hours ago, DunDUNDAN said:

Maybe DM should incorporate a karma system where if a player wants to actively murder people for no reason (counted & warned automatically) throw them into a pool of players with that same playstyle so they can know how it feels or be more suited to said playstyle.

 

for example, player A kills player B, a chat message shows of the developers choosing (I made my own here for example's sake) "You've murdered a survivor, you monster" Something lighthearted at first, because it IS just a game. Through repetition the messages get worse and worse until eventually the player either gets reconnected to the said 'pool server' or they get connected to it upon restart of the game, this is where they can stay - with people of their same mindset, either for a set time or for life.

 

Maybe if you were thrown into this pool you could appeal it on the forums with a valid argument

 

This system would need a lot of parameters, for example 1. was the victim also an assailant (had the victim injured the attacker...)

2. did the victim have a weapon equipped at the time

3. did the victim see/detect their assailant 

etc etc.

 

Another suggestion is NPC settlement infamy, murdering someone close to a faction will cause your reputation to drop, and cause said npcs to become hostile to you if you continue to do so

 

Both examples can be summed up by image shown below (Yes, It's FO:NV)

Screenshot-1.png

 

Thanks for reading my reply!

 

On 8/25/2018 at 11:15 PM, Dinkleburg said:

They did say they are making the game pve orientated so kos wont happen as often, plus if i remember correctly, melee weapons will dominate for the most part, they said guns and ammo wont be as abundant. so ppl wont always have the capabilities to kos all the time.  mixed with the a.i factions and reputation, if you go out and be a dick, you are going to be treated as such by players and the a.i. i believe kos wont be as much as an issue in alpha, but once early access on steam opens, things could change. remember ppl with also have servers designed for pve and some for pvp, and admins will ban ppl from servers if ppl act like dicks

 

Sorry, I got giddy when I saw FO4:NV screenshots. I think that NPC settlement reputation would be an awesome feature. You can murder far away from civilization without anything but meta-game getting angry, but if you kill near a settlement, the NPCs there won't take kindly to you anymore. That would be awesome.

 

This thread was more about how interesting it is that Dead Matter and Fallout 76 were both oriented away from PVP, and how there seem to be larger non-KOS groups surrounding both games now, and was intended to encourage discussion on what might be the end of KOS-oriented survival games and KOS survival game communities. I appreciate your responses and I really hope they do have AI faction reputation systems in place, but this is getting a little bit away from the original discussion this thread was meant to create.

 

On 8/25/2018 at 10:24 AM, Amerak said:

Cause a fair amount of people are fed up of hopping on a game just to get KoS. Also it's caters to more casual players who don't have a lot of time to play non stop. IMO KoS is boring and ruins the game for everyone bar the KoSer's. In general Most of them are Toxic AF as well.  

Agreed. KOS also lowers the ability for someone to progress through the game and just have a good time, and usually I don't like casual catering, but it's a thing I think we all like to see here, specifically on the topic of meta-game PVE encouragement. It's really good to see a drop in survival games getting turned to COD clones.

Edited by David

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I agree that they seem to be trying to put a lid on that as much as they can.


I mean, if I'm being honest, it won't stop me personally from mostly KOS-ing. It's my preferred style of play.  But I respect the efforts they're making. I think they are handling it better than Fallout76. Fallout76 "PvP" is an absolute joke, one of the most carebear like systems I've seen. It's one of my biggest reasons for not wanting to get it. What annoys me is that people instantly call me a griefer because I like to PvP. That's not how that works, but I digress. It'll be interesting to see what actions they take against PvPers like myself and I just hope they don't follow in the footsteps of Fallout76

 

 

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 i've played fallout 3, new vegas, 4 and i thought all were great. Fallout 76 is going to be one of the worst fallouts ever made, and possibly open world pvp games ever made as well. not going to waste time or money on that garbage. i believe dead matter will strive for more of a pve, non kos style because you can rebuild life once the zombie apoc hits. they even said u can get power plants working again and restore power to streets and such. the end game is to work together, beat out the dead and restore order to the city of Alberta. not many ppl will go into a zombie apocalypse and be like "IM A FUCKING APEX PREDTOR BITCH!!!!" that guy will be a victim. a lot.

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On 8/29/2018 at 1:37 PM, TheRandomOne2112 said:

I agree that they seem to be trying to put a lid on that as much as they can.


I mean, if I'm being honest, it won't stop me personally from mostly KOS-ing. It's my preferred style of play.  But I respect the efforts they're making. I think they are handling it better than Fallout76. Fallout76 "PvP" is an absolute joke, one of the most carebear like systems I've seen. It's one of my biggest reasons for not wanting to get it. What annoys me is that people instantly call me a griefer because I like to PvP. That's not how that works, but I digress. It'll be interesting to see what actions they take against PvPers like myself and I just hope they don't follow in the footsteps of Fallout76

 

 

 

That's not really PvP though is it? I mean if only one of the two people involved actually wants to do it then it's just one person ruining another persons day. At least Fallout 76 is coming up with a system that allows people to choose rather than have it rammed down their throat whether they like it or not. By catering to both parties you also increase your potential audience and therefore sales.

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^ As stated above PvP =/= KoS. There will be no punishment for legit PvP but If you go round Killing on Sight the game will try and make it punishing. Be it hordes will be more attracted to you or some NPC's shooting you on sight. 

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in games like these it is good to have both pvp and pve. It would be good to have a safe place you can always go to trade but maybe make it so that kos players have to pay a higher trade price and there iteams won’t sell for as much while players who are good and help others have a lower trade price and higher trade values letting these players get the better gear without killing players. Sorta a small simple solution.

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On 9/22/2018 at 11:08 AM, Amerak said:

^ As stated above PvP =/= KoS. There will be no punishment for legit PvP but If you go round Killing on Sight the game will try and make it punishing. Be it hordes will be more attracted to you or some NPC's shooting you on sight. 

How would such a system be implemented? How would it differentiate "legit PvP" vs seeing someone and killing them? Hell, what even is "legit PvP"?

 

On 9/23/2018 at 5:18 PM, Saber6_1 said:

in games like these it is good to have both pvp and pve. It would be good to have a safe place you can always go to trade but maybe make it so that kos players have to pay a higher trade price and there iteams won’t sell for as much while players who are good and help others have a lower trade price and higher trade values letting these players get the better gear without killing players. Sorta a small simple solution.

 

There should not be safe zones. I could understand most other things but safe zones remove far too much risk

Edited by TheRandomOne2112

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2 hours ago, TheRandomOne2112 said:

How would such a system be implemented? How would it differentiate "legit PvP" vs seeing someone and killing them? Hell, what even is "legit PvP"?

Legit PvP = both parties firing at one another or the player getting killed having killed before recently, non-legit PvP is someone going on a murder spree against bambis or people who haven't killed anyone recently.

 

Say there's a timer, for 45 seconds after killing someone you are considered a "legit PvP" player who can be killed without meta-game getting pissed, but it stacks whenever you kill someone, and if you kill two people three minutes apart, then for five minutes it's "legit PvP", if you kill six people in ten minutes maybe you have an hour where it counts as legit PvP. It'd use some simple math formulas to calculate how long and to what degree meta game hates you and how long and to what degree KOS is okay on you. Maybe players who have been killed by you before get double this timer to kill you without meta-game getting pissed, depending on you and that person's combat history. It's a pretty good system that could reliably cut down KOS, and it's been tried by Fallout 76 as well.

 

2 hours ago, TheRandomOne2112 said:

There should not be safe zones. I could understand most other things but safe zones remove far too much risk

I agree to an extent, but I've heard one argument that actually made me kind of like it- Just like, whenever you enter an NPC community, if you display aggression you can be apprehended or even shot by the NPCs there, but however you still are able to fight back, draw weapons, get someone into an alley to assassinate them, run away, etc. which I think makes sense and should be the only "safezone"-esque feature in-game if safezones are implemented.

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Pretty easy to implement, the more you go round randomly shooting people/instigating fights the more the NPC's are to dislike you. There are many ways to PvP than just see some one then instantly gun them down. 

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15 hours ago, Dinkleburg said:

just put a orbital cannon from gta5 in the game, and when someone is a dick, boom!!!! lolololol

My favorite part about this is we are both extremely well aware someone is going to mod it in. 

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On 9/26/2018 at 1:42 AM, David said:

Legit PvP = both parties firing at one another or the player getting killed having killed before recently, non-legit PvP is someone going on a murder spree against bambis or people who haven't killed anyone recently.

 

Say there's a timer, for 45 seconds after killing someone you are considered a "legit PvP" player who can be killed without meta-game getting pissed, but it stacks whenever you kill someone, and if you kill two people three minutes apart, then for five minutes it's "legit PvP", if you kill six people in ten minutes maybe you have an hour where it counts as legit PvP. It'd use some simple math formulas to calculate how long and to what degree meta game hates you and how long and to what degree KOS is okay on you. Maybe players who have been killed by you before get double this timer to kill you without meta-game getting pissed, depending on you and that person's combat history. It's a pretty good system that could reliably cut down KOS, and it's been tried by Fallout 76 as well.

 

I agree to an extent, but I've heard one argument that actually made me kind of like it- Just like, whenever you enter an NPC community, if you display aggression you can be apprehended or even shot by the NPCs there, but however you still are able to fight back, draw weapons, get someone into an alley to assassinate them, run away, etc. which I think makes sense and should be the only "safezone"-esque feature in-game if safezones are implemented.

 

So, if I'm able to sneak up on someone and get the jump on them, by your definition that's not "legit pvp" because they weren't able to fire back, which is dumb. Firing at one another? How close do the shots have to be? How are you going to measure and implement that? It doesn't really make sense.

 

6 hours ago, Amerak said:

Pretty easy to implement, the more you go round randomly shooting people/instigating fights the more the NPC's are to dislike you. There are many ways to PvP than just see some one then instantly gun them down. 

 

PvP is Player vs Player. So uh....how does one PvP without shooting people? And since most likely you will focus on the "random" part you mentioned, what defines random? What actual system could you put in place that would properly define what is and what isn't "random".

 

 

I feel like you guys don't actually think this through, you just don't like dying to PvP. Which is fine, I don't like when I lose in PvP either, I get that. But none of your suggestions actually make sense.

 

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You have completely missed the points we have been making about killing on sight not being  PvP. Shooting people is perfectly fine it's the shooting people as soon as you see them just because it another player no matter if they have no loot. 

 

One of the potential ways to discourage KoS is to have a kinda of "karma" system where if you shoot at a player who has their gun/weapon lowered you gain some  "karma". Once you reach a curtain "Karma" level all the NPC's would be hostile towards you bar the bandits who would now be your friends. "Karma" would slowly go down overtime. Shooting very close to or hitting a player who's weapon is lowered will give very little "Karma" where's if you succeed in kill them you would gain a fair amount of "karma". The player that was shot at/hit gains no "Karma" for retaliating.

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17 hours ago, TheRandomOne2112 said:

So, if I'm able to sneak up on someone and get the jump on them, by your definition that's not "legit pvp" because they weren't able to fire back, which is dumb.

That would be kill on sight which is not legit pvp in the system Fallout 76 uses or the way meta-game wants you to play like, according to what we know already.

 

17 hours ago, TheRandomOne2112 said:

Firing at one another? How close do the shots have to be? How are you going to measure and implement that? It doesn't really make sense.

If the player is within 165 degrees of your face and the shot is unobstructed that could be a pretty simple way to register "shooting at".

 

10 hours ago, Amerak said:

You have completely missed the points we have been making about killing on sight not being  PvP. Shooting people is perfectly fine it's the shooting people as soon as you see them just because it another player no matter if they have no loot. 

 

One of the potential ways to discourage KoS is to have a kinda of "karma" system where if you shoot at a player who has their gun/weapon lowered you gain some  "karma". Once you reach a curtain "Karma" level all the NPC's would be hostile towards you bar the bandits who would now be your friends. "Karma" would slowly go down overtime. Shooting very close to or hitting a player who's weapon is lowered will give very little "Karma" where's if you succeed in kill them you would gain a fair amount of "karma". The player that was shot at/hit gains no "Karma" for retaliating.

I heard karma talked about alot and I think that a karma system would be a really nice way of lowering KOS. 

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21 hours ago, Amerak said:

You have completely missed the points we have been making about killing on sight not being  PvP. Shooting people is perfectly fine it's the shooting people as soon as you see them just because it another player no matter if they have no loot. 

 

One of the potential ways to discourage KoS is to have a kinda of "karma" system where if you shoot at a player who has their gun/weapon lowered you gain some  "karma". Once you reach a curtain "Karma" level all the NPC's would be hostile towards you bar the bandits who would now be your friends. "Karma" would slowly go down overtime. Shooting very close to or hitting a player who's weapon is lowered will give very little "Karma" where's if you succeed in kill them you would gain a fair amount of "karma". The player that was shot at/hit gains no "Karma" for retaliating.

 

No, I see the points you're trying to make abstractly, they just haven't been practical.  This karma system, while easy to abuse, takes an abstract idea and turns it into something practical.  I'm really curious on how as you say:

 

21 hours ago, Amerak said:

Shooting people is perfectly fine it's the shooting people as soon as you see them just because it another player no matter if they have no loot. 

 

How do I know what loot they do and do not have? Some will be visual, some might be stored in potential inventory spaces. Also, if I see them and they don't see me am I instead supposed to yell "Hey I'm over here. I may or may not try to rob you but I wanted to let you know where I am because stealth is apparently bad PVP"? It seems as if shooting people is only okay in your eyes if it's in self defense, which would always put the aggressor in the wrong. That's ridiculous.

 

11 hours ago, David said:

That would be kill on sight which is not legit pvp in the system Fallout 76 uses or the way meta-game wants you to play like, according to what we know already.

 

Playing stealthy is bad now? That's called playing smart. You're an idiot if you give up your position if you can get one. I'll reiterate what I said in the quote above, am I instead supposed to yell "Hey I'm over here. I may or may not try to rob you but I wanted to let you know where I am because stealth is apparently bad PVP"?

 

11 hours ago, David said:

If the player is within 165 degrees of your face and the shot is unobstructed that could be a pretty simple way to register "shooting at".

 I think this is getting somewhere. This is a far more tangible concept, granted it doesn't suggest what then is okay PVP and what isn't. It's at least some progress.

 

 

11 hours ago, David said:

I heard karma talked about alot and I think that a karma system would be a really nice way of lowering KOS. 

 

I also think a karma system can potentially work, but if all it does is automatically punish any aggressor every time it's just going to foster a lot of carebear playing, kinda like the joke of a system Fallout76 has. That game should never be a model for proper PvP

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Yes we all agree, fallout76 will be terrible because going from storytelling to not ruins your company. i believe everyone has made good points and counter arguements, and whatever system dead matter puts in will succeed to some degree and fail, they will adapt over time and make it better. but the player community will be active and has been active to the point where i think that maybe a vanilla wow "black-list" system would come about. players would make note that a player or group of players are hostile (kos'ers) and people on that certain server will be told about those people. it would encourage players to stay away from said hostile ppl, and if they do see them, know that pvp is inevitable and you must prepare to fight. i think that would be really the only system to work because no matter what, someone will try to sneak up on you and shoot you in the head or shoot you from the mountains while your in the middle of the street. all you can do is make note, give warning, and hope for the best. or group up together and hunt them down mercilessly.

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If someones got no backpack, no weapon and wearing very low quality gear it's pretty obvious they have no-little loot.

 

We have so far strictly been talking about KoSing there are many way to PvP without just seeing someone and shooting them. There's Raiding, Fighting over sources of resources/buildings, Taunting other players. i.e Causing the environment to turn on them. Of course you can KoS but in my eye's PvP should be fun for both party's not just one person. When people kill someone just cause they can see them, especially if the other person has just spawned  kinda kills the fun for the other person. 

 

Playing stealthy is perfectly fine/needed for DM, It's the hunting down of new players/repeatedly kill people who have just joined the server that is the problem. Also as a little side note, When I'm being stealthy i prefer to try and use the environment to mess with the player or kill them.

 

About the Karma system it's not to punish warranted aggression but unjustified aggression. I.E you should be able to shoot at people who are too close to your base or who also has their gun in a position ready for combat. If i had more free time i would of wrote out nearly my full idea behind it. IMO the karma system fit's in logically and lore wise.

 

As a side note it's nice to see some decent activity and proper debating going on in the forums.

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On 9/26/2018 at 12:26 AM, TheRandomOne2112 said:

How would such a system be implemented? How would it differentiate "legit PvP" vs seeing someone and killing them? Hell, what even is "legit PvP"?

 

 

There should not be safe zones. I could understand most other things but safe zones remove far too much risk

I don't necessarily mean a place you can't be killed but more of a if you kill someone there other players will be more likely to hurt u back. Like a real market.

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My thoughts to KOS:

What might/can happen if you too much KOS

·        DIRECT IMPACT ON YOUR PERSON

o   You might act slower (Reloading time, walking, running, etc.)

o   Your wounds might not heal anymore 

o   You might find less interesting stuff (guns, tools, ammo, water, etc.)

o   Your amount of ammo will decrease

o   Your appearance will change, e.g. (your look will get darker, meaner, your clothes will get rougher, you will have to wear a red baseball cap (an orange scarf, etc.) on your head which you cannot take off so other players will notice you sooner

·        INDIRECT IMPACT

o   The Horde will get more attracted to you

o   Maybe there will be a reward on your head for a certain period of time (which depends on your amount of KOS) so other players can try to hunt you to collect this reward and maybe buy special items ot weapons for it

o   Maybe there could be a weekly/monthly reward for players below a certain kill/death-ratio.

 

To punish these players who KOS directly or too soon and too hard will take away tension of this apocalyptical time. I don´t want to dive into this fine discussion how to define what a KOS is and what it is not because I definitely lack math-knowledge to define a sort of KOS-score (shoot from behind or front, while being shot at or not, have contacted the target before). My thought here is that maybe a kill-death-ratio is sufficient enough?

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@Jurgen good ideas but some direct impacts seem a little immersion killing, like the forced hat and scarf. 

 

I think the idea is strongest where it's subtly messing with a KOS'er's head, like what you mentioned here, where you're going to have a harder time than good karma players but might not notice at first:

 

9 hours ago, Jurgen said:

The Horde will get more attracted to you

 

9 hours ago, Jurgen said:

You might find less interesting stuff (guns, tools, ammo, water, etc.)

 

I don't think kill-death ratio is a fair way to score this, I did a very rough outline of a system here: 

 

On 9/29/2018 at 8:04 PM, David said:

If the player is within 165 degrees of your face and the shot is unobstructed that could be a pretty simple way to register "shooting at".

 

On 9/26/2018 at 2:42 AM, David said:

Say there's a timer, for 45 seconds after killing someone you are considered a "legit PvP" player who can be killed without meta-game getting pissed, but it stacks whenever you kill someone, and if you kill two people three minutes apart, then for five minutes it's "legit PvP", if you kill six people in ten minutes maybe you have an hour where it counts as legit PvP. It'd use some simple math formulas to calculate how long and to what degree meta game hates you and how long and to what degree KOS is okay on you. Maybe players who have been killed by you before get double this timer to kill you without meta-game getting pissed, depending on you and that person's combat history.

 

If you notice any big flaws with it or refining that can be done let me know.

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