Setting expectations

Zahnory

New member
I went back and forth on if I should put this in discussion or suggestions - I decided to place it here because it's not directly associated with game play.

First I want to make it clear I am not trying to attack anyone. I'm only trying to offer some constructive criticism in the way dates are provided to us as backers.

Some other things I feel I should mention:
- I Am truly sorry for how long winded this will be
-I do not regret backing the game.
-Progress looks amazing and I'll be super excited to try it out when CA finally comes out.
- I fully appreciate the transparency and the ample communication that has been provided by the Devs.

The issue I'm having trouble with is expectations and the lack of setting proper expectations. To explain where this is coming from: I have created digitalware in the past, granted not the extent of full games but over hall mods and other sorts of add ons - I can first hand understand SOME of the issues that may arise. I also work a 9-5 and have taken several leadership and business classes for a couple different lines of work. One thing I have learned from experience and the classes I have taken was the importance of setting proper expectations and giving room for errors.

In the case this game gets delayed again or you choose to produce a different product some advise to keep your community happy would be to set proper expectations. If you feel something will be ready by a specific date always account for something to go wrong it's always better to over-estimate than to under-estimate a release.

Perfect example if you expect something to be ready in 3 weeks set the release for 6 weeks.

If the item truly is ready to release at 3 weeks surprise your audience with an early release.
If something happens and it takes 5 weeks you can still surprise your audience with an early release

This will save the disappointment for the "unforeseen 2 week delay" that would have been had you set the release for what you EXPECTED by announcing 3 weeks.

This also allows you to release at 6 weeks even if the product was done early and the community wouldnt have been disappointed.

Now this isnt fool proof things could still happen and 6 weeks may not be long enough, but 1 delay is taken better than multiple back to back.
 

Zom2D2

Well-known member
WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING EVERYONE BLARGHAGHGAGHAGHAGHAGHAGH!
...just kidding.

Just to say, your message isn't long winded, so that's good. It's nice to see someone giving constructive criticism instead of being angry and spouting craziness.
I don't know how many games the devs have under their belts, but that doesn't matter. There are lots of games that have had lots of setbacks and dates moved. I mean, I only started backing a short while ago, and some of these guys have been in the game for when this first started, and that was much longer than a few months ago. I can understand them being frustrated, and I can understand some of the new guys being frustrated too...

...but...I mean...I've bought into games before and had to wait. I bought a bunch of stuff for Star Citizen a long freaking time ago. I was excited for when they originally announced Duke Nukem Forever. That was, like 1997. It didn't come out until 2011. Heck, I pre-purchased Destiny's newest expansion, expecting to play it here in July, and it's been pushed to NOVEMBER. Do I think that these delays could have been avoided? Sure. Do I think that they're always exactly what they say they are? No, of course not....but I also realize that these things happen, to HUGE studios with TONS of money, and if it can happen to them, it can happen to smaller studios too.

From what I understand, QI is not a huge firm with thousands of people working on this.
They could have said "hey this won't be out for a few years" and then surprised everyone, but they want people to back them. So they set a goal. goals aren't always met. That sucks. So they set another goal, and things happened. That sucks too. But can you imagine the backlash they'd get if they set it too far ahead? It's a very double edged sword. I know that I'm a little unreasonable in my "go with the flow" ideology, but I think they were pretty close on their last projection for July. Yeah, it didn't happen in July, but the roadblock is gone and things are full steam ahead.

Do I wish that they would let the backers in at the same time as the partners? Of course I do!
But they gotta build hype for the game, and they are probably giving themselves a little more time to make sure things are good before they open the floodgates and deal with the people who are going to complain anyway.

Now, I know that you've had experience in doing overhaul mods and such, and I know that it's not easy modifying a game, but...let's be fair -- modification isn't exactly the same as creating from scratch. It's very involved, yes, and I have all the respect in the world for any modders, but you have something to work with to change. It's not the same thing.

Could they have handled things differently? Sure. I think that they handled it pretty well. The majority of the people are psyched for the game, and will be happy with the results. You're one of them, I'm one of them.

Thank you for being awesome and understanding. I know the criticism isn't for me, it's for the devs/QI, but thank you for being helping instead of hindering. It's cool to see calmer heads offer advice, especially from experience. Hopefully you'll also be involved with modding for this game, there are lots of wants and such that experienced modders can bring to the table.

See you out there!
 

JohnH2005

Active member
Game development has change drastically in the last 10 years and probably even more drastically than that in the last ~5. Back 20-25 years ago, when a game was released, it was pretty much released. There were not a whole lot of patches. There were not a whole lot of after release support. Even before that there was NONE. Stuff was released on a cartridge and that was about it. Alphas were ALPHAS and if you got into one, you KNEW what to expect. You KNEW it was going to be a buggy mess. You KNEW stuff was not going to work right. You KNEW. If you got into a Beta you KNEW what a BETA was. You knew that everything was "just about" done and just polishing and bug squashing. The game/software/hardware was just about ready for a final public release.

Now? Those lines are gone. ANYTHING that you put into the public hands will be received as a final product. Just look through these forums. So many people saying, I BOUGHT THIS GAME AND I DO NOT HAVE IT YET. Yeah, no shit, this is an ALPHA and the GAME will not be released for AT LEAST a year and probably closer to three or four. Of course you don't have the damn game yet. I think that is where the dates keep getting pushed back further and further and further. The Dev's feel like anything that is in the game right now has to work, has to be polished, has to be release ready. Otherwise some jackass will be blasting forums, YouTube , Twitch and everything else with, THIS BUGGY SHIT IS NOT WORTH BUYING. That is why even saying Six weeks when you mean three weeks does not work. That is why probably even tripling the target is not enough. Just another example is a post on here (and not picking on them just using it as an example) was of someone asking the animators about first person view in the car, hands turning wheels, stuff like that. "Previous" development cycles would not see that until around the end of the Alpha not the start of the Pre-Alpha. But now, people are expecting fully functioning polish at this stage of the "game."

Now, today we have Day 1 patches, Day 1 DLC (shit that was cut from the original vision then tacked back on as a proffit margin for the PUBLISHERS, not the developers) and sorts of stuff that would have been completely unacceptable 20 years ago, and today it is EXPECTED. Sorry for the rambling rant...
 

Zom2D2

Well-known member
JohnH2005 said:
[ insert things you said here ]
Yeah, that's pretty much it. I'd be ok with playing a buggy alpha (because that's what alphas are supposed to be), but like you said...people are going to complain on blast if it's not somewhat release-able. Either way, I'm glad that the wait is nearly over.

That's a passionate post you made there. (y)
 

Maeharaprojekt

Active member
No need for me to quote everyone above;

One of my hopes for the near future is that people begin to understand that instantaneous completion of work only happens in Star Trek episodes and certain James Bond films.

Of course, I still believe in Satan Klaws and that saying "Hello sailor!" into a dark and empty room will get you insta-gibbed by a lurking grue, so I am almost certainly as delusional as a tree octopus that is four arms short of a pair.
 

Zahnory

New member
Delays are gonna happen I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that planning and proper expectations will fix everything and ensure NO delays - I'm not naive. I'm ONLY saying better setting better expectations would reduce some of the negative responses by their backer community. They have been very transparent with us explained the issues they have had to the best they were allowed to and even let us know this was the first project of this size they have released together (this in itself is alot more than many other developers would or have ever done). This transparency would have allowed them to be a little more broad and less specific about dates. What I mean by this is had they said "we are aiming for a summer release" the following "delays" would have still happened
-Mid june
-Mid july
-End of july
-2 week count down after the road block cleara
-And the current 2 week count down starting then end of next week

The difference is it would have been taken much differently by alot of the public.

Of course you cant please everyone but I think this would have been much less upsetting, I know for me (and a few others I have spoke to) it would have been because at this point I feel like I'm being lead on - and in reality I wouldnt care if the CA was released in December so long as the expectations they set were a bit more accurate.


And I'm just gonna drop this on the end I thought I was pretty clear (or maybe i took the message wrong?) I'm not expecting the game RIGHT NOW, I'm not upset that it isnt out already, and I'm not expecting a finished game when CA releases- I'm only upset with the way they are handling the expectations they are releasing to the public. Hopefully this clears up any misunderstandings =)
 

Azz

Member
To be honest I just saw July so thought cool something to do until Horizon Zero Dawn is released in August (Hopefully) and when July came and went I thought ah well It's nearly August 7th so I'll fill my time playing Escape from Tarkov or No mans Sky.

I must be the only person on here who is not sitting there staring at a screen waiting for the CA to drop & at my age I no longer get excited over computer games, I'll look at it when ever the release date is.

With regards to setting expectations and release date I agree they should give a broader spectrum for release and not keep giving a month then missing it as like you state this sends out wrong messages and upsets a lot of people.

One thing I learnt in my job is never make promises you cannot keep, I never pin myself to a due date with my customers. The best they get is ASAP.

Now everyone is excited for a release of the CA in 2-3 weeks and if that gets missed it'll kick off again with upset people.
 

IamStillHere

New member
Normaly i don´t want to write something here, but after i read this . . .

The Trust and delays

I change my mind.

1st let me say, that i play and enjoy Computer Games more then 40 years.
In this Time a lot change and Games get really extensive and Bug hunting get more complicated.
I understand everyone that is waiting for there Key and i understand that it´s frustrating to get all time a new date for the CA,
but I understand the Developer, too.
They have only 2 ways to give you the Keys,
1. they can try to fix so much bugs they found and improve the game experience, that we have fun playing the CA, or
2. they can give out the Keys early and we can´t enjoy the game at all, Player´s get upset.

The 2nd is the most dangerous for a small Developerteam and Dead Matter.
Why?
because in a time of Steam EA(reviews), You Tube etc. it´s very easy to get bad reviews on a Game.
You see it all time in Steam EA Games, people buy it and give criticism like it´s a finished AAA Game and forget thats Alpha or Beta Versions they are playing.
OK, a lot af the Steam EA Games was really not playable when they was released and other Games was good.
The Internet never forget and when we get a good experience in the CA the Game get better reviews and enjoyable Youtube Videos.
Good reviews = more audience = better Sale = more money for developement and at the end a good finished Game.

Personal i prefer the 1st and wait,
"Juli 24 Update: Kyle has continued working on bug fixes for occasional crashes on dedicated servers, other miscellaneous bug fixes"
It´s not nice to have a Game that´s kill all fun, because of bugs and gameplay issue.

When you read until now, hope you understand me, because English is not my native language
 

BERZIN

New member
My guess is that they probably did think it would be ready well before the dates given, but that due to such inexperience/small team size/ completely unforeseen shitstorms, they just gave bad dates that had the unintended effects you were talking about. Now that they have this "deadline" under their belt, we should hope that they will be better on the next one.

Also the time they have delayed it by is miniscule in comparison with the delays for other similar projects. Hell even AAA games are constantly delayed these days and they have massive teams with experience working with deadlines.

All in all i think they're doing pretty good for some local Berta Boys (plus other places).
 
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